Hi,

I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
really is good layout with a combination of these. I don't really know when
to use tables or when to use just css and I would really like to see
examples of well designed web sites and the html for it. I hate "what you
see is what you get editors".Â*Â*Â*DoesÂ*anybodyÂ*knowÂ*ofÂ*anyÂ*books Â*thatÂ*show
good examples of web page layout?Â*Â*IÂ*wouldÂ*alsoÂ*likeÂ*toÂ*seeÂ*goodÂ*ex amples
of using tables for page layouts -- (even though I know the css people say
don't do that, i'd still like to know how.)

I'm also planning to use PHP to construct pages so if anybody knows about
any books that cover Web design with php, that would be great too -- and
I'm refering to more of the presentation part.Â*Â*Â*Thanks

Mudge wrote:[color=blue]
> I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
> really is good layout with a combination of these. I don't really know when
> to use tables or when to use just css[/color]

Use tables when your marking up some kind of tabular information,
*never* for when you just want things to be positioned so it looks good.
Use CSS when you want to present the content in any way.
[color=blue]
> and I would really like to see
> examples of well designed web sites and the html for it.[/color]

Try the CSS Zen Garden. The HTML markup in there is really good, and
there are hundreds of fantastic designs. Also, try looking at the home
pages for many of those who've submitted designs.
http://www.csszengarden.com/
[color=blue]
> I hate "what you see is what you get editors".[/color]

Good, they're quite awful unless you know how to control them
properly and clean up their code, but even then I recommend hand coding.
[color=blue]
> Does anybody know of any books that show good examples of web page layout?[/color]

Try Jeffrey Zeldman's "Designing with Web Standards", Eric Meyer's
"Eric Meyer on CSS" and "More Eric Meyer on CSS", and Dan Cederholm's
"Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook".
[color=blue]
> I would also like to see good examples
> of using tables for page layouts[/color]

That's a contradictory statement. There cannot be any "good" layouts
using tables, because using tables for layout is *WRONG*!!!
[color=blue]
> -- (even though I know the css people say
> don't do that, i'd still like to know how.)[/color]

Don't bother learning bad techniques.
[color=blue]
> I'm also planning to use PHP to construct pages so if anybody knows about
> any books that cover Web design with php, that would be great too -- and
> I'm refering to more of the presentation part.[/color]

What do you mean? There is no presentation with PHP. It's just a
server side scripting language used to dynamically output web pages and
other related resources. The presentation part is done using CSS and
properly structured mark up. You can, of course, use PHP to do whatever
you can program it to do, and output whatever you like. Try asking in a
PHP or server side programming newsgroup, or just use a search engine to
find information about it.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://www.lachy.id.au/
lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.update.virus.scanners

Remove .update.virus.scanners to email me,
NO SPAM and NO VIRUSES!!!

Mudge wrote:
[color=blue]
> I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
> really is good layout with a combination of these.[/color]

What is the accepted way to share a message across multiple newsgroups?

http://smjg.port5.com/faqs/usenet/xpost.html

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

In article <TOsKc.6046$K53.4191@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.update.virus.scanners> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
> > really is good layout with a combination of these. I don't really know when
> > to use tables or when to use just css[/color]
>
> Use tables when your marking up some kind of tabular information,
> *never* for when you just want things to be positioned so it looks good.
> Use CSS when you want to present the content in any way.[/color]

Never, unless of course the client forces you to.

--
Kris
<kristiaan@xs4all.netherlands> (nl)

I didnt know there was an accepted way.....
--
Rob Collyer - www.webforumz.com
Web design and development forums for Free help, advice,
tips, and website critique by professional designers and developers.



"Brian" <usenet3@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:10fkvol4b9rc58e@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
> Mudge wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
> > really is good layout with a combination of these.[/color]
>
> What is the accepted way to share a message across multiple newsgroups?
>
> http://smjg.port5.com/faqs/usenet/xpost.html
>
> --
> Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
> http://www.tsmchughs.com/[/color]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:55:20 +0000 (UTC), Rob Collyer
<webforumz@webforumz.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> I didnt know there was an accepted way.....[/color]

Way to do what? You should also quote properly - in the sig is not a good
place. In natural conversation order, that's a good place.

Anyway, now you're smarter! Hooray!

Rob Collyer wrote:[color=blue]
> I didnt know there was an accepted way.....[/color]

Multiposting is severely frowned upon in Usenet, hence my reply to Mudge.
[color=blue]
> Rob Collyer - www.webforumz.com[/color]

Oh swell, another web interface to usenet.

If you don't want to get killfiled, and fast, then please realize that
this is a usenet group, comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, with
certain rules that we follow to make the forum productive and
enjoyable. One is don't multipost. Another is that you should not
top-post. And you should not put quoted material below your sig. There
are others. A good starting point.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/

You are free to ignore these conventions, of course. But then, the
regulars are free to ignore your posts.

HTH.

--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/

Mudge wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS. What I don't know
> really is good layout with a combination of these. I don't really know
> when to use tables or when to use just css[/color]

If you have data that is best shown in a tabular format, use tables. If you
want to suggest layout, use CSS.
[color=blue]
> and I would really like to see examples of well designed web sites and the
> html for it. I hate "what you see is what you get editors".[/color]

Such a beast does not exist when it comes to the World Wide Web. If you mean
"editors which show one of many possible renderings, particularly one
corresponding to a desktop computer with a GUI" then yes, generally these
are bad.
[color=blue]
> Does anybody know of any books that*show good examples of web page layout?
> I would also like to see good*examples of using tables for page layouts --
> (even though I know the css people say don't do that, i'd still like to
> know how.)[/color]

The element name is "table", *NOT* "layoutgrid". If you have a real table
(data best represented in a tabular format), then mark it up as a table. If
you don't, don't.
[color=blue]
> I'm also planning to use PHP to construct pages so if anybody knows about
> any books that cover Web design with php, that would be great too -- and
> I'm refering to more of the presentation part.[/color]

PHP has little to nothing to do with presentation. In 2004, that's the realm
of CSS only.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

Kris wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> Use tables when your marking up some kind of tabular information,
>>*never* for when you just want things to be positioned so it looks good.
>> Use CSS when you want to present the content in any way.[/color]
>
> Never, unless of course the client forces you to.[/color]

Only when updating an existing site with minor changes, and when time
does not permit rebuilding the entire thing. When starting with a fresh
site, do it without layout tables, or I'd walk out without looking back
and go work somewhere where my skills will be appreciated. Or, if I
wasn't confident of being able to find a new job soon, then I'd at least
argue it with them until they accepted the better way of doing it.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://www.lachy.id.au/
lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.update.virus.scanners

Remove .update.virus.scanners to email me,
NO SPAM and NO VIRUSES!!!

Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.update.virus.scanners> wrote in message news:<ElCKc.6901$K53.5656@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
[color=blue]
> or I'd walk out without looking back and go work
> somewhere where my skills will be appreciated.[/color]

In the UK, in 2004, then you'll be unemployed. There is _no_
commercial demand for good coding practices.

Just take a look at Jobserve if you don't believe me. There's
monkey-work for Frontpage bunnies ar £12/hour, and there's a little
stuff for high end Java spods, but there just isn't any commercial
demand for someone who "knows HTML" at a level that's just basic
flame-proofing hereabouts.

Mudge <mark1822@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:sIqKc.103856$JR4.25019@attbi_s54:
[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> I know the html tags and am pretty familiar with CSS.[/color]

That is good.
[color=blue]
> What I don't
> know really is good layout with a combination of these.[/color]

The trick is to practice making layouts with CSS. Start by making simple
ones, with just a little floated menu on the side.

It particularly helps to read the HTML 4 and CSS 1 specifications. I say
CSS 1, because you might as well read the smaller CSS specification first
(as opposed to CSS 2), because it has an easier learning curve.
[color=blue]
> I don't really
> know when to use tables or when to use just css and I would really
> like to see examples of well designed web sites and the html for it.[/color]

"Well-designed" is subjective, of course. Use tables for information
that, when written on paper, would be in a table. Such as a
multiplication table. CSS gives you more choice for layouts.
[color=blue]
> I
> hate "what you see is what you get
> editors".Â*Â*Â*DoesÂ*anybodyÂ*knowÂ*ofÂ*anyÂ*books Â*thatÂ*show good
> examples of web page
> layout?Â*Â*IÂ*wouldÂ*alsoÂ*likeÂ*toÂ*seeÂ*goodÂ*ex amples of using
> tables for page layouts -- (even though I know the css people say
> don't do that, i'd still like to know how.)[/color]

One example of a table-based layout is pretty simple. I don't have a
link to provide, but make a two-column, one-row table with navigation in
the left cell and content in the right cell. Like this (view with fixed-
width font):

/-----------------------------\
| Emps: | |
| *Blah | Content |
| *Alex | |
| *Ken | Blah was an |
| *Jen | emperor. Blah |
| | didn't use CSS. |
| | Blah got hung in |
| | effigy. He wasn't |
| | very popular. ;-) |
| | |
\-----------------------------/
[color=blue]
> I'm also planning to use PHP to construct pages so if anybody knows
> about any books that cover Web design with php, that would be great
> too -- and I'm refering to more of the presentation part.Â*Â*Â*Thanks[/color]

PHP and web design are rather independent of each other. Using PHP for
some reason does not force you to change your pages' designs.

I am not exactly sure what you would be using PHP for. Plus, I did not
use a book to learn PHP, so I can't be of much help here. :/

Andy Dingley wrote:
[color=blue]
> Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.update.virus.scanners> wrote in message news:<ElCKc.6901$K53.5656@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
>
>[color=green]
>>or I'd walk out without looking back and go work
>>somewhere where my skills will be appreciated.[/color]
>
> In the UK, in 2004, then you'll be unemployed. There is _no_
> commercial demand for good coding practices.[/color]

Good thing, I'm not in the UK then.
[color=blue]
> Just take a look at Jobserve if you don't believe me. There's
> monkey-work for Frontpage bunnies ar £12/hour[/color]

Any company looking for someone like that doesn't deserve to have
good people work for them anyway, so I wouldn't even consider applying
for a job with that description. I guess, I just put the quality of my
work ahead of my employment with a company that I wouldn't enjoy working
at anyway.

If I'd be forced to *significantly* lower my quality standards and do
something that is a blatent disregard for the specifications and
guidelines, I wouldn't do it. Having said that, there are limits.
There's not much point losing your job over something *relatively
minor*, but when it comes to something that will seriously affect
accessibility or maintainability of the site, such as using pure
JavaScript menus, layout tables with spacer gifs or proprietary markup,
I won't do it!

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://www.lachy.id.au/
lachlan . hunt at lachy . id . au

Please direct all spam to abuse@localhost
Thank you.

In article <kO%Kc.8371$K53.4625@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Lachlan Hunt <lachlan.hunt@lachy.id.au.invalid> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
> >>or I'd walk out without looking back and go work
> >>somewhere where my skills will be appreciated.[/color]
> >
> > In the UK, in 2004, then you'll be unemployed. There is _no_
> > commercial demand for good coding practices.[/color]
>
> Good thing, I'm not in the UK then.
>[color=green]
> > Just take a look at Jobserve if you don't believe me. There's
> > monkey-work for Frontpage bunnies ar £12/hour[/color]
>
> Any company looking for someone like that doesn't deserve to have
> good people work for them anyway, so I wouldn't even consider applying
> for a job with that description. I guess, I just put the quality of my
> work ahead of my employment with a company that I wouldn't enjoy working
> at anyway.
>
> If I'd be forced to *significantly* lower my quality standards and do
> something that is a blatent disregard for the specifications and
> guidelines, I wouldn't do it. Having said that, there are limits.
> There's not much point losing your job over something *relatively
> minor*, but when it comes to something that will seriously affect
> accessibility or maintainability of the site, such as using pure
> JavaScript menus, layout tables with spacer gifs or proprietary markup,
> I won't do it![/color]

You could, of course, infiltrate yourself in such an idiot company, and
gradually help change the rotted core from within. A long and ungrateful
task however, that I would not enjoy doing a second time.

--
Kris
<kristiaan@xs4all.netherlands> (nl), <http://www.cinnamon.nl/>
"De voordelen van toegankelijk bouwen": <http://www.struikelblok.nl/>